Wanita Z Fourie is joined by Josh Borgia-Frost in a podcast Interview for The Online Business Academy® in the lead up to the Social Media Conference 2017. Josh was a sales director for places like Siemens Ericson and is now trailblazing in Social Matrix as a Co-founder and Director and is making huge waves in helping business with Social Selling.

Social Selling seems to be quite a new word and has only been around for about a year or so.

What is your definition of Social Selling?

Social media platforms have provided us as Business owners, with interest in selling with a platform to engage with customers in the buying experience, during the buying experience and, after the buying experience.  It gives us a two-way communication platform to have a relationship with our customers.

Gone are the days when we only saw the customer when they had an issue or a problem or an opportunity that we could help them realise.  Now we have this two-way platform where we can listen and observe and educate our customers before the buying experience.

Is Social Selling is a completely new skill, or is it an old idea that has been packaged differently?

The pioneer industry in this skill would be the Tech Industry.  I have had a focused interest in Social Selling ever since I employed younger digital and social media natives into my sales organisation, and watched how they engaged with their customers.  That was their go-to platform, they are the natives, so it is really interesting to see how Millennials use social media to sell.

The Tech Industry obviously observed that.  Companies like IBM, Salesforce.com, Oracal, particularly in the United States, have launched massive Social Selling programs to overhaul and develop the capability of their sales organisations. IBM now has over 4 000 digital social sellers; it is their role.

So it is a new task in the Sales profession.

The old way of selling is definitely different to Social Selling.

Let’s have a discussion around that and the differences.

Do you think that the word “sales” still has the dirty connotation to it that it has always had?

What my observation and my research has shown, around the role of the sales profession with the onset of Social Media as a way of doing, is “gone are the days when we were flogging our products”.

Today, if you want to sell; remember that the buyer is as well educated on your solution as they as the sales person is.  We found this at Siemens and Ericson, and Oracle, and Spark. The sales person used to be able to rely on their knowledge and expertise of the solution they sold, but we found, more and more, that even in the commercial decision-making, the buyers are as educated as we are.

Now it has switched, and I find that to engage a customer, or a prospect, on social media or even in person, I need to be an expert in their world.  I should be able to offer insight, and what I call “commercial insight”, being an expert in the customer’s world. What that would look like, if I were selling a telecom solution to the FMCG Industry, is I would want to understand how the logistics industry has changed.  I would want to understand how communication, online tools, and technological tools have changed their industry.

Obviously, when I am educating my customers on commercial insight, it needs to link back to the value that I sell.  You are not only teaching customers about their business, but you are also teaching them about problems and opportunities that they do not even know they have, and how that links back to the value that you are selling.

Thus, social media is a place to teach our customers.  Customers learn on social media e.g.: platforms like LinkedIn, Twitter and even Facebook, for a business professional.  They may be looking for a job, they may be networking, or they may be trying to sell what they are doing, but they are also looking to learn.

When I am sitting on the bus or waiting for at the doctor’s office, and I am flicking through my LinkedIn feed, I am passively learning, and that is an opportunity for the sales person to teach their customers.

Are you saying that a large element of social selling is teaching and educating?

Yes, that is it in a nutshell.

If you can show enough value and expertise in a customer’s world, and teaching the customer about the problems, issues, and opportunities that they have and that they didn’t know that they have, and how that subtly links back to your value proposition, then when the time comes that they are triggered. After they have done their research and they make the decision to buy, you are considered and you pop up in that pathway to purchase online and on forums and blogs.

It’s not simply about feeding content to the machine – it’s about feeding the right type of content

I think people lose it where they think that social media is something crazy, but it is not, it is just another way of reaching your customer and learning how to use the technology to do it.

Yes, that’s right.  Also, another thing that Social Matrix does is that we work closely with the sales organisation and a large part of that is capability and development of the sales people, themselves, as well as the sales director, regarding how to measure development.

For example we had a client who employs 12 salespeople, and they sell a technology solution.  They told us that 90% of their customers bought one product line and their best opportunity for growth was to sell two or three of those products.  It was a no-brainer that they needed to be connected to their customers on social media to have a social relationship.  What we found was, after doing an audit on their LinkedIn, that their best salesperson was connected to 5% of their main prospects.  They were connected to friends, family, etc., but not customers. That was the first part.

The second part, which we find particularly in Australia and New Zealand, is that salespeople are a little bit shy.  Pulling out your handset or mobile, getting behind the camera and interviewing your customers and sharing commercial insights about what works in their customers’ world was something that was not happening.  They need to create original content that is of value in their customer’s world.  Another aspect is curating relevant content from other thought leaders and decision makers in their customer’s world. Content is the pivotal point.

That is not to say that you can’t sell through social, but you are not making yourself or your sales people famous on social unless you are actually creating content. It is important to stick your head and create content or share something that resonates with people or you won’t be considered.

We are certainly seeing a lot of companies like who were really well-known before the tech age came along, but now are losing clients to these young millennial companies that are forward thinking, that are creating awareness and content, and that are building themselves as influencers.  These companies are moving ahead of companies that don’t want to be on social media.

Yes, absolutely.  We talk about becoming key influencers and this has become an industry.  There are companies out there that are just acting as agents for key influencers on social.  I would like to make that analogy for the sales people who are also becoming influencers.

I know in the typical sales environment we used to say that you needed to have 4 or 5 touch points and then a customer would buy from you.  With social media, I believe it’s a lot more than that know.  What are your views on that?

It depends on what you do, what you sell and what the goals of the business are.  We certainly don’t put our hands up to our customers and say that social is the only way to go. My business partner, Hasan, focusses on small to medium businesses, and he has found that one of the effective ways to sell is still to walk into a retail shop and talk about social.  However, you still need to be seen on social, so the touchpoints aren’t just social media.

I agree. There are still a lot of companies that are not yet on social media so you still need to talk to have that face to face.  We should never think that social media is the only way.  I think the more companies grow and expand and gain confidence, they will be doing a lot more on social and then it becomes a crowded market place and then you have to think of different ways of doing it.

You said earlier that you found that millennials are better suited to social. Is that true regarding social selling?

Here is another case for you, and this is what inspired me to get into the market with our offering.  As Director of Sales at Fairfax Media, I led a Social Selling Change Programme and most of the 220 odd sales people had been carrying the bag and knocking on people’s doors, the old fashioned way, to get sales.  So that is a major behaviour change.  Even from the leadership perspective when the pressure is on and you need to hit the budget at the end of the quarter, you don’t really have time for such a major program because we still need to make the sales.

We asked our people to pick up the phones and follow up on their old lead lists to make the sales.  But I found that having those young millennials as champions of the change, who did it anyway, who were able to deliver results, were models of the behaviour as a result. That inspired some of us older sales people to sit up and take notice.  It also helped me engage marketing and finance who have a stake in the sales.

When we built our pilot team, I hired 4 or 5 people from outside the business that I had worked with before, and we started to hire in the skill.  What I am saying is that it is a behaviour change and there is some development, some risk, and a level of uncertainty and discomfort for us who are older and have been selling for years.  We have always done what we’ve always done, and we were quite successful, but these younger millennials who do it anyway have much more success, and they are not working as hard. This is because when you pick up the phone and make the appointment, the customer is already engaged, the days of the cold call has gone, and that is because of social media.

In your opinion, what are the benefits of social selling?

I have sent out a really interesting piece of insight on my LinkedIn feed, and I have had a few comments and a couple of shares, and here we are talking about engagement on social media.  From a sales perspective, I want to know why they liked it, why they shared it, or why they made a comment. I did a little research on who that follower was and made some assumptions about the industry they may be in. I assessed what the drivers are in that business are. Remember, we have to be smart and savvy and experts in their world.  Now, I might pick up phone and talk about their comment or share of my feed, tell them that I noticed in the Business Review, last week, that there was an article about what is happening in your industry. I thought that might be why you shared that statement because it might be relevant for you at the moment, am I right?  Generally, if you’ve done your research, you won’t be wrong, and then you have closed in an appointment.

We are now having more meaningful conversations; it is not so much a numbers game anymore.

Thus, that is the number one benefit is that we save time.  We also learn a lot more; our pipeline is easier to fill with qualified leads, it is easier to qualify out prospects that are just going to waste your time and qualify in prospects that have a real need to talk to you.

I’ve found that using people’s posts on a platform like Facebook allows you to minimise guessing, and have information available which can cross barriers that you wouldn’t otherwise be able to without social media. What are your thoughts on that?

Xero is not a client, but I know many people in that business, and they do social well. They use Twitter well, and they use LinkedIn well.  What they found was that they understand the accountant makes the ultimate decision inside the partner sales channel and therefore LinkedIn is a platform to relate to them.  However, the real decision maker is the middle-aged lady sitting in the office, doing all of the data transfers using Excel spreadsheets and feeds from banks.  She is the one who has to do the work, and this is all by their own profiling, and she is not on LinkedIn!

So the question I put to Xero was to meet them on Facebook because I am sure that they are on Facebook.  They might not be sharing content themselves about Xero or accounting; they are probably not on there for their work.  They are probably on there to observe what is happening with their families and friends.

I think there might be unsaid protocols around how we use social media, but you can be subtle.  I have connected through Facebook plenty of times, and I have won business having engaged initially on Facebook – and I deal business to business.  I use Facebook, Twitter and I even use Snapchat, it is about being prepared to engage in the way the customer pleases is appropriate.

I think a lot of the older generation have that great experience, regarding the customer, by some of the jobs that they have done, and by some of the training that they have done.  I think some of that still needs to be positioned regarding “customer experience training in social selling”, not just “customer experience training”.

You can see how people deal with situations online now and there is a different way to train people to think about that.

Yes, absolutely. Perhaps what we can learn, as older folks, is how to use the platforms, but what we can bring to the platforms regarding content is so valuable, and that is not happening enough.

I draw some really interesting content from experience that many of my older customers and colleagues have had in the industry. For the millennials, social is the place to go to, but they have not carried the bags, they do not have the wisdom or have the war stories to tell, and that is what makes for good content.

I agree. The millennials are born with the technology and access to it, but I also find that the older generations who have mastered it are phenomenal in using it because they understand that it is about the customer and the relationships.

At the Conference, last year, we handed out the Content Matrix.  Do you use that and find it valuable?

Yes of course.  It gives my team a tool, a process, and a map to work with their clients.  In saying that, because our bigger offering is capability, we ask our sales people to focus on one platform at a time.

Regarding content; you have blogging, podcasting, video, and photography, and often we find that the individual sales person has a strength or an interest. For example, not being comfortable behind the camera or not being comfortable in front of the camera.  Some of them are good with words and others a good with blogging.  I have had Skype interviews with clients where they won’t even switch the video on and are still uncomfortable with that.

Are you finding that as well?

Some, and it is just interesting to observe.  Maybe they are just aware of the fact that they are still at home and can work in their pyjamas, I don’t know.

I would love it if you would take us through a Social Selling process and use any analogy you want.

I will keep it really simple:

1. Choose the relevant platform. Business to business; it is probably LinkedIn and Business to customer; it is probably Facebook or Instagram. You can potentially use Snapchat, but from a social selling perspective, it is really difficult to map a pathway to purchase with.
2. Then it is about optimising that profile to ensure that you convey the appropriate message that you are trying to sell. It is not about flogging products; it is about presenting yourself as an expert in the customer’s world.  It is about the copy and the imagery, and that is the easy part.
3. Then it is about ensuring that you are connected to your target-rich audience. If you are selling to millennials, are connected to your friends and family, are 45 years old, then you are not connected to your potential customers.  You need to create campaigns and interventions to ensure that you connect to the right audience.
4. Content! Content that engages, teaches, inspires, celebrates, and shares success will resonate with that target audience. The measure of likes, comments, and shares shows you that you are posting the right content to the right audience.  So content is the pivotal point.  You are curating other people’s content, you are sharing other people’s content, and you are sharing other people’s success.
5. Finally, and this is actually where the rubber hits the road, social listening is one thing. We have a client that has a slick operation. They have a Facebook manager and an Instagram They have a photographer, a videographer, people working on copy, and they have a process that watches social conversation. On every post they get about 200 likes and heaps of comments, but they only get involved in the conversation when there is a question or a complaint.  What we are saying is that, as social sellers, it is about moderating and generating conversation.  It is about starting a conversation and having a pathway where it is passed off as a lead that needs to be followed up.  If you invest in using social as a lead generator, that is where it will happen.  The content that you create can, and should, start a conversation.  It is not just about posting and watching the likes, shares and comments.  It is about starting a conversation, qualifying a conversation and engaging a customer. Then that is when you take it offline, if that is appropriate.

What are you looking forward to at the Social Media Conference 2017?

I’m looking forward to going into more detail about social selling. This interview is a scrape of the surface, there will be so much information at the conference and I’m excited to be a part of that. I’ll also be taking a session where I teach people all about social selling.